Brooks and Capehart on who holds the upper hand in the race

AMNA NAWAZ: For what to watch for in these final days of voting, let's turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.

That is New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

Great to see you both.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: All right, so the race for the White House is as tight as ever.

There's nothing markedly different in this latest Marist poll I'm about to show you, but I'm going to show you anyway, because it gives us a sense of where we are still in Pennsylvania, in Michigan, and in Wisconsin, in these key battleground states.

Vice President Harris has a two-to-three-point lead.

It's all within the margin of error in each of those states.

But, guys, I just want to -- I want to step back for just a moment away from the polls and the details, because we are in the final days of a truly unprecedented presidential and election cycle, who these candidates are, how they got to the top of each of their tickets.

So when you step back, Jonathan, from the day-to-day headlines, how are you looking at this race?

How would you describe it and this moment in American political history?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, the first thing I say is, praise Jesus we are four days out, and that this is almost over.

But, in all seriousness, I would say, of all the presidential campaigns that I have watched and I have covered, this is one where the contrast between the two candidates could not be more stark, could not be more plainly evident.

I think that what we're about to see in this election -- lots of polls and the polls, are all over the place, the polls are all tied.

But, come election night, we're finally going to hear what the American people have to say.

And the fact that I feel optimistic, but not overly, like, yes, so-and-so is going to win, gives me some trepidation.

If anything, I'm more worried about what happens when a winner is declared and the reaction from the American people who didn't win.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, what about you?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I see two big historical plot lines.

Since 1970, American policy, like the policy around the world, has been geared toward moving our economy and our country toward a postindustrial society.

And every policy, including immigration policy, education policy, trade policy, social policy, has been directed toward and benefited those of us who are college-educated and are doing well in the information age economy.

A lot of folks, not only in our country, but around the world, are saying, that was wrong.

Those people have benefited.

We have been left behind, and we need somebody who's going to right the wrong for those of us less educated.

To me, the most interesting polling data of this week was that, if you contrast college-educated women and high school-educated men, there's a 43 percent gap between these two populations on who they are going to out for, the educated women going Democrat, high school-educated men.

So that's one massive storyline.

The second is the more obvious one, which Lisa's just been talking about, or Judy's just been talking about, which is, we have had norms, institutions and structures in our society... AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: ... based on the idea of liberal democracy that politics is a competition between partial truths, that, if we lose this time, we will win next time.

And, therefore, it's all within bounds.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: And that is being eroded by Donald Trump.

And not only that is being eroded, the basic norms of our democracy, but the norms of the Western alliance.

You know, I worry that NATO won't be around in three years if Donald Trump wins.

So those are one -- two big storylines.

One of them, which I think is supportive of Trump, it makes -- understand why he's here.

The other one makes you want to run for the hills.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, there's norms also just around our discourse, how we talk about things, the things that are said and acceptable.

Garbage was one of the most frequently used words in our headlines this week.

We saw that Madison Square Garden rally.

Former President Trump had speakers that called Vice President Harris the antichrist.

They called her a prostitute.

They called her low-I.Q.

And you have both covered a lot of elections.

Jonathan, is this a new low we're at when it comes to the discourse?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes, I mean, how far beneath the sea can you go?

And whatever that number is, that's where we are and that's where we have been.

I think what Donald Trump has been doing in the closing days of this campaign is shameful.

I mean, last night, in addition to saying what he said about Congresswoman Liz Cheney, he called Kamala Harris a -- quote -- "sleazebag."

That's the language he has been using, not just yesterday, not just at that Madison Square Garden rally on Sunday, but throughout his campaign.

And that gets to why I'm really looking forward to Election Day, because the American people will choose what - - not just what kind of country they want, but what kind of person they want to lead them, someone who embodies or tries to embody the aspirations of the American people, or someone who plucks at grievances and threatens retribution and uses language that belittles, that disrespects, and makes it possible for him to do a whole manner of things that even 10 years ago would not have been imaginable.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, you mentioned it's Donald Trump who's upended a lot of these norms.

Does it change if he loses?

DAVID BROOKS: I don't know.

I was at a church in Tennessee.

I decided it'd be interesting to go to a Christian nationalist church.

And so I went to this.

And I have to say the congregation was sincere in its faith.

Sometimes, you think Christian nationalism is all about politics.

These people were clearly moved by their faith.

But the pastor up there in the pulpit is calling Kamala Harris satanic.

There's crudity.

It's just like, I was at that church.

I thought, Donald Trump fit into something.

And it wasn't only a professional wrestling.

It was in churches.

It was preexisting in the churches and the neighborhoods.

And it was just this culture of the narcissistic cult leader.

And I saw it at the church, and I think Trump is a version of that.

So I don't know if we go -- like, if Trump exits the scene, I'm not sure we go back there.

We have got the professional wrestle-ization of American society that's out there.

AMNA NAWAZ: But in terms of what that means for real-world implications, I mean, Jonathan mentioned the Liz Cheney comments.

For if anyone who missed it, he last night said - - calling Liz Cheney a war hawk, also suggested that she should have guns trained on her face.

This is a man whose supporters did listen to him and march on the Capitol and fight, as they saw it, for an election they believed was stolen.

What happens if his supporters listen to him again?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.

Well, then we're in for dark times.

I think he -- his vocabulary is an attempt to offend us.

And his supporters thrive off our offense.

And so it's sort of a symbol.

And all the populist leaders all around the world are doing the same sort of stuff.

But it means that you can't have politics, you can't have friendship amid political difference.

I just read a long Politico story on two brothers who are on either side and can no longer speak to each other.

And that, of course, has been the story we have all felt and witnessed over the last number of years when it becomes -- when you're -- one side is trying to offend and the other side is naturally offended, then it's hard to have relationships across political difference.

AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, how do you look at it?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't know.

This whole campaign and what we have had to witness, particularly from Donald Trump, has been painful, because, as an American -- I think I have said this many times before on this show.

I grew up under two terms of Reagan, under a term of H.W.

Bush, two terms -- as an adult, two terms under W. Bush.

I thought I knew what Republicans stood for.

I thought what -- I knew what Republican leaders stood for, what they -- what their boundaries were, what their lines were.

And they were completely obliterated in one presidential term of Donald Trump.

And over these last four years, we have seen not just the lines obliterated, but just completely gone, to the point where Republican leaders of conscience and goodwill are cowed to not say anything, to not do anything to try to turn the tide, take their party back from this man, to bring back decency to our political discourse.

Sometimes, I -- people ask me, what would it take?

And I said -- I say, it would take a Republican Party that en masse would come forward and say, that's not right, that's not what we do as a party, that's not who we are as a country, and you must stop, and hold the person accountable.

They didn't do it with Trump.

They haven't done it with Trump in the nine years he's been in our faces.

And I don't expect them to do it again, which means, come Tuesday night, we will be in a different America.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, we have got four days until the last day of voting.

Does it feel to you like either candidate has momentum right now?

And do you care to make a prediction?

(LAUGHTER) DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I thought, obviously, when Kamala replaced Joe Biden on the ticket, she clearly had the momentum.

And that was noticeable in the polls.

Then she clearly plateaued, and it looked like Trump had the momentum for probably two or three weeks.

I don't hear a thing right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: No?

DAVID BROOKS: I think there -- I believe in the wiggle at the end of the term.

I think there's always a wiggle.

And the wiggle shifts people.

And -- but I don't know where that wiggle is or what's causing the wiggle.

I don't want to say the word wiggle too many times.

(LAUGHTER) AMNA NAWAZ: I think you might have got that one.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I think three or four times is good.

DAVID BROOKS: So I have never in my life been so confused about what's going to happen.

I have no clue.

AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, equally confused?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't know if I would say confused.

To answer your question, I do think that the vice president has momentum.

But I'm not making any predictions, because we just don't know.

And the thing that, again, I'm looking forward to on election night is finally hearing from the American people, because if there's one thing we all in our profession need to have in this time is a sense of humility.

We do not know, no matter what those polls say, and we will find out Tuesday into Wednesday.

AMNA NAWAZ: We will indeed.

Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, always great to see you both.

Thank you.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.

DAVID BROOKS: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: And, of course, Jonathan and David will both be with us next Tuesday, when we will have live election night coverage.

Join us for in-depth analysis as the votes are counted.

Our livestream online begins at noon Eastern.

Then special coverage right here on your PBS station starts at 7:00 p.m.